Haela Hunt-Hendrix is an important contemporary figure who has contributed to fields such as avant-garde music and philosophy. Her manifesto Transcendental Black Metal, named after the genre she performs, and her band Liturgy, along with other musical projects she has taken part in, continue to be discussed and consumed within underground culture today. Ahead of Liturgy’s Istanbul concert at Roxy on August 23, we sat down with Hunt-Hendrix for an intellectual conversation over Zoom.
I want to start off with a somewhat heavy question: I read an interview of yours from 2023 where you predict that “the world is going to change a lot in the next 5 or 10 years.” I personally believe that it already is changing at an unprecedented speed where we see a huge collective brainrot caused by the chronically online pandemic era we went through, which has contributed to a lot of people going from liberal or even left to alt-right. I recently watched a video where some guy proudly says, “I’m a fascist!” You could not see a fascist being so openly confident and proud about their worldviews even a year ago.
Haela Hunt-Hendrix: Yeah, I know that video. You mean the one Jubilee posted, right?
Yeah. Is the current global late stage capitalist, misogynistic, exploitative, anti-queer, anti-trans, anti-immigrant, anti-everything-bare-minimum-to-be-human, pro-genocide, tech-oligarchy mindset trend more or less what you predicted in that interview?
Yeah, that’s a pretty heavy opening question. (both laugh) It’s honestly more general that. It was just clear that the world is going to be a different world five years from now, you know? Certainly there are political reasons. I think technology is a big part of it too. I mean, I don’t know what’s going to happen. Maybe civilization will collapse, maybe it’ll be amazing, maybe it’ll be technological abundance, but I don’t think I really have the power to predict, except that the world we know is not going to stay like this, and it’s already not like how it was anymore. Everyone is just kind of like, “What’s going on?!” And there is so much brain rot. I know what you’re talking about. We’re all so addicted to content and stuff like that. Also, why would someone go to school right now? With the current structures, it’s like, “What exactly do you plan on?” So yeah, that’s just my very general answer to that question (laughs).
Yeah, I agree with you that we can’t totally predict what is going to happen, but then again, you’re a critical thinker who said in your Transcendental Black Metal manifesto that “the US is a declining empire”. So that sort of gives context about what you -as well as many other critical thinkers- feel about the current systems that we live in, right?
Well, yeah. I mean, I didn’t even mention war, but there could be a very significant war like nothing we’ve ever seen, you know? It seems as likely as not. So yeah, all bets are off. What do you think? Do you have an idea of what’s gonna happen?
I think that in the near future we will definitely see more bad things happening than good things, but I am overall an optimist on how people might learn and develop, while I do acknowledge that the thesis and the antithesis tend to move in cycles.
Yeah, maybe so. It’s also hard to know even what’s really happening too, because the information of what’s going on isn’t necessarily getting out totally. There’s a lot of strategy and psyops out there that seem organic but aren’t. It’s a crazy time. It’s unbelievable. It’s hard to believe that the world is actually like this right now.
This period is unique also because we never went through a fear of a potential new world war during the age of social media before.
Exactly.
You are an individual who is into a variety of topics including philosophy, religion, and spirituality. How are you with astrology? Do you have any interest leaning into that field?
Yeah, I like astrology. I wasn’t as interested in it actually until four or five years ago, but then I began to take it more seriously. Around the time of the pandemic, actually. I keep track of where the stars are in the sky and that kind of thing. There was a Venus-Jupiter conjunction that was supposed to be really good on Monday.
I think there are ways to interact with astrology that can inspire you or guide you. The thing is, there are different systems of astrology. I was really getting into Hellenistic astrology, and then I found out about Vedic astrology, which is maddeningly similar yet different, because it’s off only by a little bit. It’s not really off but different, ’cause there’s the tropical Zodiac and the sidereal Zodiac. It’s the same 12 signs, but they’re basically rotating at different speeds. I definitely think that there’s no one true astrology, because there are these two systems that are slightly different yet almost the same. I don’t think it needs to work like that either, because I think a lot goes on. There’s also just something really healthy about it all. It’s almost like being in touch with nature or something. Knowing what the current Moon phase is is just kind of nice.
Yeah. It is also important to note that it goes back to ancient Babylonian times as a practice. To me, teachings and schools of thought with a profound history can at least give more knowledge and perspective to you about humanity and the universe, if not straight up teach, inspire, or enlighten you.
Yeah, I very much agree with that. I really love ancient culture. I try to have my mind in ancient times as much as possible, partly to remember that the world two thousand years ago was actually real and that events were actually unfolding. People were having conversations that were sensitive, clever, and fallible. There were institutions and trade, all this stuff that felt like this world that we’re in right now. It’s just one way things can be. It gives you a historical consciousness.
You’re obviously a spiritual person. Who are some of your favorite spiritual people? To be honest, David Lynch is definitely a very inspiring spiritual figure for me, and I am kind of asking this question as an excuse to maybe mention him one more time (both laugh).
I love Christian theology, Islamic mysticism and theology, and Buddhist practices. I see a lot of overlap between that field and continental philosophy as well, which sometimes people think is not true, but it really is. People like Hegel and Schelling are theologians too.
David Lynch is kind of odd. Everyone loves Lynch, but he’s very special to me (laughs). In terms of bringing a mystical project to consumer culture or trying to sort of convey the reality of God in a capitalist attention-economy culture is something that Liturgy is all about. That’s pretty much what I’m seeking to do. Not even seeking, just what I have always been driven to do. I see David Lynch as the founding saint of that practice. You watch Twin Peaks and you think you’re going to get a certain kind of a TV show or something. Or think of Lost Highway. It’s a cool movie with a cool soundtrack, but then it’s also very, very deep. You sort of see God. If you’re attracted to that kind of thing, it can be a really transformative experience. I think that David Lynch caused that kind of experience in me. I think of certain key moments in his movies and just go wow.
Yeah, and he was also very spiritual. He was practicing Transcendental Meditation.
Yeah. I think that Buddhist metaphysics underlies all of his work. He talks about tulpas and Aleister Crowley or something like that. Some mix of Buddhism and Thelema.
I think your definition of penultimacy as described in your manifesto has certain parallels to this quote believed to be said by Leonardo DaVinci: “Art is never finished, only abandoned.” There is an initial idea that we work on, which is abandoned at a certain point in a sort of penultimate state. Would you agree?
Yeah, I mean, that’s just how it goes. A creative practice, for me, I experience it as this glowing image of the perfect Liturgy album or whatever. You are guided by it and you’re just trying to bring it to life or turn it into something concrete, and it basically always fails. I used to get really upset when I was done with albums because I felt it was bad, that they were a failure. That used to be a big problem. I would wreck release schedules and go back and try to change mixes, ’cause I felt like the album had failed to be what it was supposed to be. But then after a while, you realize that those are just two separate things. It’s the Divine and the Terrestrial realm basically. You can’t fully render the One, it can’t be captured. You can think according to the One, but it stays up there. You crystallize embodied works that point to something higher, and it’s always kind of a failure, and then you abandon it maybe if a new inspiration comes.
Let me connect this answer to a question recommended to me by a friend: You’re probably familiar with the line “I contain multitudes” by Walt Whitman included in his poem “Song of Myself.”
Yeah!
Do you think that sentiment resonates with the art and philosophy that you’re making?
Well, yeah, man, I’m an American, you know (both laugh). That tradition of transcendentalism with Emerson, Whitman, Melville, the Hudson River Valley school, and this idea of creation as ecstatic and contradictory projects, I connect with a lot. I think that’s what Whitman means by the multitudes or when Emerson says, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.” There’s a cacophony of the different. I relate to that in terms of mashing up styles. I’m really interested in bringing different styles together in unlikely ways. There’s a composer named Charles Ives who would write symphonies that were intended to sound like two different marching bands marching towards and interfering with one another. That kind of discord as a kind of harmonious dissonance is something that I love.
When you think of your actual creative process, are there two tracks that stand out, one being really easy and one really hard to make?
They’re all hard to make (both laugh).
I saw that answer coming. I think that resonates with your whole idea of penultimacy, and also burst beat.
Yeah. I’m very into trying to do the best you can, you know, or just working on things over and over again. I do a lot of revising and editing. I know people who write a song in a day or something like that. Some of my favorite music is written that way. But I work on everything for at least a year, or something like that. Writing albums with songs that inspire each other, taking a part of one song and putting in a different song and having them fertilize each other. All that takes a lot of revising.
How does your subconscious play into that process? Do you see cryptic symbolism in your dreams, or something like that?
Yeah (laughs). I love interpreting dreams, or interpreting remarkable coincidences. I’m always doing that. The other day, I was walking by The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, and I was like, “I need to go in there.” I don’t know why. Then I saw this special exhibition and I didn’t really like it, but then… I’m working on a new album right now with the band that is a remake of this particular older record, which I won’t say what it is, but they were playing that record at the exhibition, and it’s not well known at all. The album itself doesn’t sound that amazing, but to me, that experience felt amazing. I just love living life, doing Divination all the time, whether through dreams, coincidences, sudden inspirations, or whatever.
For coincidences, I would say that the random things you observe in real life can often feel more surreal than dreams.
Yeah, I think it’s definitely more surreal, because it’s actually happening. You can’t just say, “Oh, that’s just a dream.” They don’t necessarily have a clear meaning, but if you’re not doing that sort of observation, then the ordinary meaning becomes too dominant. The ordinary way that things are going seems like it makes sense, but it doesn’t really. So when a crazy coincidence happens, you’re just like, “Oh, wait!” Reality’s actually made of crazy coincidences. Things can really change with that realization. You are freer to make choices, I think, when you’re looking for those things.
Do you ever keep dream journals?
Yeah, I have before. I’m not doing it currently. I wish I did more. I would love to keep track of all my dreams. I sometimes look back at an old dream I wrote down, and it means something. It seems to have a lot to do with what’s currently happening. I feel like I forget a lot of important things in dreams. I’m a little bit too scattered to keep track of them as well as I would like. Do you do a lot of dream journaling?
I have tried it a few times with voicenotes, and it didn’t really work for me further than that, partly because you forget dreams if you don’t instantly transcribe them in some format. And when I try to write them down, not all parts make sense, because I am too sleepy at the time of noting down, leading to me missing a few words that make up a meaning, or something like that.
I see.
Lately you have been doing more solo shows, and you also just mentioned that you are currently working with the band on new material. Maybe we can talk about your current working order and how the near future is shaping up for you.
Yeah, I’m just doing both. I’ve had this solo set for at least five years, and I’m just getting more offers for it really. People are asking me to do it for festivals and stuff, so I’m building tours around that. I am working on material that is not just solo, but more acoustic and actually different from the usual Liturgy sound, although this solo set is not different from it. The solo set is very recognizably Liturgy. But yeah, we’re working on new full band stuff too. I’m not really planning it out. I did a lot more solo touring this year than I meant to, and I’ve been enjoying it. So I’ll keep doing more. But yeah, we’re still doing the full band touring stuff too.
Apart from music, what plans do you have in mind for other creative fields right now? I remember you had an exhibition in Norway last year…
Yeah, I have been doing art shows. I did one in Norway last year. I’ve done a couple in New York and they’re these mystical sculptures. I’m still writing philosophy texts as well. I’m supposed to be publishing a book that is a critical theory on the esotericism system, which I’m still working on.
I’m excited to read that. I don’t follow new releases in that field closely, so that would be a nice change.
What would your stuff be?
I’m mostly reading artist biographies or research books on any topic that I find interesting at that moment. I’m not actively researching what esoteric stuff is coming out, so I would love to read more.
Yeah, I see. I think there’s an interesting intersection between critical theory and esotericism -and art too- that’s beginning to open up, and I like that. Maybe that’s partly because the world is changing so much. Sometimes I get a little bit black pilled on the ability of philosophy to do anything though. That’s actually why I’m kind of dragging my heels on my book. I just don’t know what the point of discourse is right now. It just seems like everything is just kind of co-opted, so…
I bet there will be some great discourse coming out of it.
Yeah (laughs).
This could be a nice time to wrap things up full circle with the first topic we talked about: More and more people are beginning to have some interest in spirituality, but I have also felt that spirituality and left wing activism don’t intersect as much as I would wish them to. There are definitely way too many bigoted or fascist people who call themselves spirituals.
Yeah, exactly. I think it will be possible for those things to intersect more. I think that maybe that’s the hope we should have, that there will be a way.
Here’s the encore question: Let’s imagine we’re at a Musicians Theme Park 100 years from now, where every artist or band featured has their own memorial stone with a certain lyric by them written on it. Which one of the lyrics would you like to see written on Liturgy’s stone?
The first thing is I don’t remember all my lyrics (both laugh), but I have a line. “Ribbons of gas flailing across the sun.”
You can check out Liturgy’s Bandcamp profile here.
